What is Humility?
This week’s Gospel speaks a lot about humility. It is something that we say we want but have a hard time doing what we need to do to achieve it. It is something that we don’t always appreciate for its true value. So I put together a list that should encourage us to seek out the humble way as Our Lord teaches. Then some helps along the way:
1. What is humility?
a. Seeing ourselves as God sees us
b. Not worthless, untalented, or less than others AND also reflecting all genuine good back to God
c. Knowing: we know little, achieve little, life goes on
d. “hummus” – feet planted in the earth / truth
e. Compare ourselves more with Jesus than others
2. Benefits of humility:
a. You don’t waste time or effort for sake of status
b. You will be trusted
c. You will have wisdom because you are teachable and learn
d. You will draw good friends
e. You will have peace that won’t be shaken by events or people
f. You will know how to listen / others will listen
g. You will have better friends
h. You will spend more time being “lifted higher” than demoted
i. You will be in better relationship with God
3. What can we do to be more humble?
a. Pray for true humility
b. Question your motives: why are you buying that, doing that?
c. Recognize Jesus in everyone
d. Give up status and honor and choose God
e. Do what is right even if it hurts your image
Same Sex Marriage?
California’s legal situation about same sex “marriage” has certainly been in the news lately. One reason it’s been so newsworthy is because people tend to agree or disagree and strong opinions exist on both sides of the debate. News agencies love explosive and divisive issues to sell their media. Unfortunately, a true discussion of the underlying issues is not being addressed. Instead, it is being portrayed as a debate between individuals who are being denied constitutional rights and religious extremists who want to keep them from having any. Frankly it is a campaign of slogans. So it begs the question, “What about people who do not favor homosexual marriage but also want to make sure that homosexual persons are affirmed in their human dignity?” I thought I’d write something up but keep in mind that it is not an exhaustive discussion.
1. Changing the definition of a longstanding historical institution is not a “right”. Marriage has culturally, religiously, universally, and historically been between men and women. There has been a historical precedence for polygamy but those who say homosexual marriage has always existed have faint evidence for their claims. The attempt to change what marriage is, while accusing those who would oppose doing so as bigots, is a manipulation. We are still left with fact that marriage by its worldwide, cultural, religious, and historical definition is between men and women. In other words, homosexual “marriage” is something different than “marriage”.
2. Where is the line to be drawn? This isn’t a derogatory question. I’ve heard it said that “consenting adults should be able to do what they want.” It’s not an illogical thing to say, “Why draw the line at homosexual marriage?” What if someone wants to marry multiple partners in a polygamist relationship? What if groups want to marry? What about bi-sexual people who might want to redefine marriage as the option to switch between partners? What if people want to marry things other than human beings? Somehow these groups are left out of the discussion or are dismissed as irrelevant to the discussion. But to be honest it would be the same argument to include them as well in any redefinition of marriage.
3. Religious views should be respected. I do not like the argument that religious people have nothing to say about any policy that affects the country. It is another example of a false premise that irreligious people have every right to be heard but religious people do not. Our values and morals have every right to be expressed as well as believed.
4. It is naïve to say that homosexual marriage will have no impact on social issues as the proponents claim. At the very least there should be some hard and unbiased data that realistically points out the effects that any change to marriage would have on the social fabric of our society.
5. Some have asked me if a change in the law will mean that the Church will be forced to marry everyone. The simple answer to that question is no. Jesus was straightforward about marriage and specifically said it was between a man and a woman and from the beginning God intended it to be that way. Laws can come and go but the Church does not have the power to change marriage. Therefore marriage for Catholics will remain according to its original intention.
6. Does denying homosexual “marriage” discriminate against homosexual persons? Saying that marriage is an institution between a man and a woman is not an excuse to deny basic human rights to homosexual persons. Homosexual persons have been and continue to be slandered and discriminated against in our world. We uphold everyone’s right to be received as Christ and loved as Our Lord expects. We should be vigilant to make sure that everyone is affirmed in their basic human dignity regardless of whether the state allows homosexual unions or not.
What’s a Gospel?
This week as I was putting together the homily I noticed Jesus’ response to the Father’s will (an unwavering dedication and commitment to follow it out to the end) contrasted with responses from various people to the Gospel message (some were resistant, some naive, some had good intentions but life pressures prevented it from happening). The point is easy enough. We should go the way of Jesus.
The problem is that there is an assumption that people even know what the Gospel is. More and more it is pointed out to me that the assumption is not really the case. Imagine, for example, if you knew very little about Jesus. Why would you care that this historical figure died a couple thousand years ago? Even if he did die and rise again, what difference does it make to our lives? The answer to these questions is found in the Gospel message. But what is that?
“Gospel” literally means “good news”. So what is that “Good News?” It is a bit difficult to sum up in a sentence or two because there are many aspects to it. Maybe that’s half the problem. People want quick and easy answers. Think about how news stories are told in short and black and white perspectives. When is the last time you heard a well balanced and in-depth analysis of any topic? So my theory is that people settle for the quick and easy instead of exploring the fullness of anything because of three reasons: 1. rebellion, 2. naivety, 3. good intention with no stay power. Interestingly enough, Jesus touched on these several times including this week’s Gospel reading. Think about Jesus’ parable about the sowing of the seed. Seed fell all over the place but some only some entered the good soil and grew to be healthy. The rest got “eaten” up by birds, scorched by the heat, and choked off by the bushes. Jesus was telling the parable to say that there will be a million reasons why we won’t receive the Gospel. So what’s the Gospel? Even though no “one liner” summary is sufficient, maybe we do need a starting place so that we know it’s worthwhile to go deeper and explore that “Pearl of Great Price” we call the Gospel.
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and if we are in Him we also have access to these things through faith. With Jesus you will know why we are here, where we are headed, and how to get there – AND have fulfillment and joy in this life because you will be in Spirit and Truth. You will not be weighed down by regrets, sin, or inadequacy because Jesus is greater than any of that. He will help you to know who you really are and restore you. You will be loved and know love. The death and resurrection of Jesus gives all of this to us because his sacrifice opens the door to all of this. This is why he “set his face” to Jerusalem and this is why we should not let anything get in the way of the Gospel coming into our lives in its fullest extent. The Gospel leads to salvation and with faith we can have it all.
Now what do you think. Is that worthwhile? Of course a summary will not begin to expose the depth of the reality of the Gospel but at least it points out why we would want to seek that first and above all other things.
Changes are a comin’ soon…
We will be having some major changes at the parish beginning in July. First of all, we will be getting what is called a “Parocial Vicar”. That is basically another parish priest to work with me. With an additional priest comes additional responsibility (to quote Spiderman). I’ve also been appointed pastor of Our Lady of Fatima Parish in Shady Cove, Oregon. First of all, you might be interested in knowing who the new priest will be. His name is Fr. Theodore Lange. He is now finishing up his studies in Rome and will be back in the US by mid June. Some of you may have met him when he was at Sacred Heart last summer. I think we did very well in the priest draft so when he does come make sure that you make him feel welcome. As for Shady Cove, I don’t know too much about the parish yet. I have a lot of learning to do and will be meeting with their councils next week to try to learn as much as I can. I’ve always liked Shady Cove and I look forward to working with them soon.
Also, you may have heard that we have worked out an agreement for the land swap so that we can move forward with the new church. I am in the process of putting together a committee for the new church and want to get things moving. We do have a lot of the groundwork done but will need to revise things a bit after seven years. I’ll make sure I keep you all updated as things progress.
So that’s the news for now. I’m keeping it short for now but will fill you all in on the details as they emerge.
Catholics are taking a hit, but is it justified?
I remember in 2001 the priest sex abuse scandal that was well publicized. I was two years into priesthood and remember many people being angry with me. Of course I was too new to have any possible connection but people were angry with the Church and I was a public representation. In the time around Easter it has come back into the spotlight since the cases in Europe and a couple other stories have made the headlines. I didn’t have an opportunity to address it because of the timing of Easter, but now that it is after Easter I wonder what I can really say about it. Taken as a whole, it never should have happened and saying that it happened equally or more in other institutions doesn’t really make me feel better about it. I don’t like the way that all Catholics and all priests get some instant guilty badge because of the misdeeds of a very few. I also don’t like how the focus has been on anything and everything except really helping all victims of abuse. But it makes sense to me that the Catholic Church should be singled out. It is the largest church and a scandal story that points out hypocrisy will always catch an ear. What gets lost, however, are the positive steps we have taken as a church. Did you know, for example, that everyone who volunteers with children has a criminal background check, goes through a series of trainings, and signs off on an extensive procedures policy to recognize and prevent abuse? Did you know that our prevention charter is nationwide and accessible for all to read (we have them in the church and they are available on line) and we are compliant with it? Did you know that one slightly credible accusation against a priest or a minister is enough to pull him or her out of ministry? If all you heard was the news you would think that we are doing nothing as a church, and priests were the most dangerous men on earth. The truth is, contrary to many opinions, neither of these perceptions are true. So we don’t get a fair shake? Personally, I expect that because we do have a higher standard and we should live up to it. I don’t see the point in trying to get defensive over every story that comes out. I think it is much more productive to do our part to prevent any abuse and encourage the greater community to follow our lead. Still, I do think that we need to be informed of the full story and know that we are not sitting on our hands. Fr. Bill has included some articles on his parish website that I’ll post a link to. You may want to read over some of the links since they do tell another side of the story you might not hear in the casual news.
Fr. Bill Holtzinger’s Links about Abuse Stories. They are on the front page of the St. Anne website.
But let’s not forget to pray and do our part to prevent any abuse cases in the present and future. Realistically, that’s the most important thing.
The Book I Was Talking About…
This is the book I referred to in the homily. It deals with what happened during the death of Jesus and why things happened the way they did. The name is: “Jesus the Final Days – What Really Happened” by Craig Evans and N.T. Wright. You can find it on Amazon or order it from Louise at “The Dove” in Rogue River, OR.
What Does Easter Mean for Most of Us?
Last week I was doing part of a workshop that focused on Adult Education in the parish. The main speaker was basically saying that church life in general is a hard sell for many people. Some in the group acted surprised, but I have to admit that I wasn’t one of them. A committed Christian life, as rewarding as that is, is not easy. Even weekly church attendance is a hard sell for most people. Some would say, “Why go to church when I can do my own thing and fit God into my schedule?” Or, “I’d rather do something (or do nothing) than have to plan my day around going to church.” Also, for younger people, obligation and duty doesn’t matter like it used to and networking and information about faith is more conveniently gained through the internet and phone – and they feel it to be enough. Add to this a strong cultural push by many to classify “religion” as something negative. They would argue that by belonging, you are being brainwashed by organizations that do nothing but tell people not to think for themselves and crash planes into skyscrapers. I know that for anyone who is a practicing and faith-filled Christian these types of statements are laughable, but for many people it is their perception. So what does this have to do with Easter?
Easter is a time (like Christmas) that many people will go to church even when they might not ordinarily do so. Unfortunately, it is also a difficult time for them to get a real feel for what a more committed church participation has to offer them. For example, during Easter the parking lot is crowded, the church is a zoo, the Mass can be noisy, and the service can be not too exciting. They might say to themselves, “Who needs this on a regular basis!” And it justifies their prior perceptions. The only problem with this is that it is not true. I’m convinced that:
1. Jesus and the Church are awesome. Regardless of what the haters might want to say, the Church has done more to change society for the better than any other institution. Personal conversion, social and human outreach, intellectual pursuit, an anchor of truth, and a counter voice to evil are just a few general benefits. Focussing on the sinful exceptions does not negate the overwhelming force for good that the Church has done and is doing.
2. Jesus and the Church will do more to change your life for the better than anything else – if you let them. Part of the problem is attitude. People don’t want to be manipulated, misled, taken advantage of, or committed to anything that is optional. Hey, I don’t blame them. There is so much misinformation and manipulation in the world that we have to be critical. But the problem is that in people’s desire to be critical, they over criticize and don’t allow the truth to sift through. Because of this there can be a tendency to make all things “true” or all things “false”. This can make us lazy and apathetic. Why bother delving into complicated matters if, in the end, nothing can be known for certain anyway? The Good News is that Jesus makes truth known and it really is accessible without manipulation.
3. Religion is like a cell phone or computer. If you believe from the beginning that they are something to be afraid of or are so overwhelming that they aren’t worth looking into, you aren’t going to be much inspired to try them out with an open mind. You might think, “It will just complicate my life. It will just make me have to change they way I do things. It will control me in some way.” Of course some people would use them incorrectly, but for most people they are valuable tools. If this is true for stupid machines, how much more true would it be if it were God himself who wanted to give us his tools for helping us through life? Some people will misuse religion, but most will find it an invaluable tool for life.
4. The Church offers us what we cannot have on the outside. Why do I say this? First of all, because it was Jesus’ idea. Jesus decided to ascend to Heaven and give us the Holy Spirit and the Church. The Bible, the sacraments, prayer, and Christian fraternity are really understood within the context of the faith in which they were created in. Here’s one example: I once had someone argue that Jesus wasn’t divine. I told them that historically the disciples and the Church always believed that he was (and therefore my Biblical “proofs” of his divinity held more weight than their “proofs” of his lack of divinity). They replied that the Bible is from God and the disciples and the Church were wrong. I scratched my head. How can you place your interpretation above the Church where the Bible came from in the first place? (Yes, I know it came from God – but it also came from people of faith writing from within the Church). My point is that if we want to know the Bible, Jesus’ teachings, the sacraments, and what God is all about, we will be MUCH better served to do it from within the faith in which God chose to reveal them all. If we think we can do it on our own, we will be constantly struggling and swimming upstream. I’m not saying that people who don’t like church are bad or unholy, I’m just saying that they are kidding themselves if they think that their personal approach is better than the Church that Jesus himself started – AND they haven’t given Jesus’ method a chance.
OK, fine, but what now? I realize that for the vast majority of people, they will continue to do as they have always done. But I also believe that many people would discover how great the Church could be in their lives if they were just encouraged a bit to look into what it has to offer. So the Thursday after Easter we will be hosting a little gathering to invite people who might be interested in seeing what the Church might have to offer them at this time in their lives. I will not do a hard sell and I’m not here to judge anyone or put anyone on the spot. I just realize that perhaps Easter might be a good time to reach some people who might have been tossing the idea around of coming back to the Church but needed to explore their options and get their questions asked. So Thursday, April 8th, at 7:00 PM we will be gathering in the modular classroom named “Mark” next to the offices to do a brief presentation and will offer information and give time for any questions. If people have any private concerned, an opportunity will be provided for them to have these addressed as well.
If Easter is a time to celebrate the reality of the resurrection, I just figure we should help people to experience the a little more about what that could mean for them personally.
Where’d Confession Come From?
At least a few times a year I get the question about why priests hear confessions. “Why can’t we go straight to God?” Good question, and I’ll answer it soon. But first I want to get to the reason behind the question in the first place.
The question gets asked a lot because we don’t like having to confess our sins to other people, let alone God. We (myself included) would rather “go straight to God” because we wouldn’t have to say our sins out loud, go through the hassle of finding a priest to confess to, and face the fact that we are not really the ones who call the shots with God. So keep in mind that we often won’t go to confession because we are being stubborn or prideful. It really isn’t because we have a good argument for going “only straight to God.” (Sure, we should tell God we are sorry as soon as we sin, but Jesus also says we need to go to confession – as we shall see)
John 20:19-24 has a description of Jesus appearing to his disciples after the resurrection. He breathes on them (give the Holy Spirit to them) and says, “Receive the Holy Spirit… who’s sins you forgive are forgiven them, who’s sins you retain are retained.” In Matthew 16:19 (and 18:18), Jesus tells his disciples, “What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” What does all this mean? It means Jesus gives the disciples (Church) the commission to forgive sins in his name. It’s really pretty black and white. Jesus specifically told the disciples (and by extension the ministers of the Church) the direct command to forgive sins. So people who try to argue that priests have “no right” to forgive sins and Jesus wants us to only go “straight to him” need to read their Bible! It is really pretty obvious that confession is something that Jesus intended his Church to have. OK, fine, but let’s now look at “why?”.
1. Healing. Jesus is all about healing and he combines physical healing with forgiveness of sins. Just to give one example, in Mark 2:9 Jesus forgives sins and then heals the paralytic. Even then people challenged Jesus’ ability to forgive sins on earth, but he asserts the fact that he has the power to do that. Further, he gives his disciples (and the Church) the command to “heal” people (for example Luke 9:1-2). The main point here is that total and complete healing includes forgiveness of sins. The Church has the power to heal sickness and disease AND forgive sins because it is all connected to the desire to heal people totally, mind, heart, soul, and body. Jesus doesn’t want his Church to minister in his name and heal with only one leg. Forgiveness is part of the package.
2. So what does it mean? Jesus gave the Church the ability to forgive sins for many reasons. We already know one reason and that is the Church having the mission to totally heal people, but there are other reasons as well. Confession forces us to face our sins and be humble enough to admit that we need forgiveness. Confession helps us to hear the words of forgiveness and know that we are truly forgiven by the authority of Jesus through the Church. Confession helps us to hear the words of forgiveness in a concrete way. Confession helps us to not be overly scrupulous or overly casual about sin because the priest can guide us to the middle. Confession is a sacrament and ritual that imparts grace to help us to be better and grow in our love of God and his people. And confession helps us to get rid of burdens that we might have been carrying for years.
I hope this helps you to understand why we have confession. Too often we associate it as a negative thing we have to do. I want to plant the seed that it is a positive thing that God has given us for our sakes. If we change our frame of mind to the positive, we might approach it with a whole new attitude.
From the priests’ perspective I can tell you that I really don’t judge anyone. It is actually the opposite. I see people doing their best in their faith and it inspires me in my own faith and convicts me to go more often. I’ve never revealed someone’s confession. For that matter I don’t know of another priest who has and I’ve been around a lot of priests. I’ve also seen the incredible lifting of burdens and the healing that it brings.
Our Penance Service is Tuesday the 16th at 7:00 pm. We will come together as a church and pray. Then we will have 7 priests to hear our confessions. Let’s take advantage of this opportunity. Remember that confession and forgiveness really comes from Jesus himself.
Haiti and God:
The earthquake in Haiti inevitably brings up the age old question, “Why would God allow something like this to happen?” Whether people are religious or not, there is something in all of us that searches for answers to questions like this. Why did this terrible thing happen to a people so poor and destitute to begin with? We know that things like this shouldn’t happen. The world should be good and peaceful. There are some conclusions that people make in response to questions like Haiti. I’ll list them below. The Christian response is the last one.
1. God, who should be good, should help all to be well. Since all is not good, God either doesn’t exist or He just doesn’t care. This answer stops too soon. It doesn’t go deep enough. For example, the fact that we know deep down that it is not how things should be cries out that God does exist and He does care. Think about it. Why would we have an internal conviction that things should be different and God should care if the object of that desire did not exist. If God didn’t exist or didn’t care we would just accept it as normal and not think twice about it. If God didn’t exist there would be no “why”. Using another metaphor, an itch has an object to be scratched. The question points out what we know that in the depths of our souls: that God exists and is good. Therefore, when we see a tragedy or an injustice we naturally see the incongruity of the situation. So we need to go deeper to find the real answer to the question, “why does Haiti happen when God is good and bad things shouldn’t happen”.
2. God is punishing his people. Rev. Pat Robertson made the news because he said Haiti happened because they made a pact with the devil 150 years ago during their revolution for independence. First of all, there is a problem with the historicity of this statement. Haiti’s slave revolt was against the French and many of the leaders reverted to their animist roots but this is much different than making a “pact with the devil.” But let’s leave that aside and deal with the question. Does God punish his people? In this case the answer is no but it is true that we can bring things on ourselves if we do not follow God’s ways. For example, God gave me free will and if I overeat, drink alcohol, and smoke I shouldn’t blame God when the doctor says that my health is terrible. When someone chooses to murder someone, God doesn’t murder but rather it is a consequence of the sin that someone made because of their free will. I guess that God could stop all sin from happening and thus the consequences of sin, but that would be contrary to the gift of free will that he gave us. It seems that God allows bad things to happen as a consequence of free will because his gift of free will is not worth taking away to prevent all evil from happening. In Haiti’s case, if the sin of corruption of their government were removed from the equation, maybe building codes would have been better and many people’s lives would have been saved. Even so, it doesn’t make sense to say that God did it to punish them. It also doesn’t fully explain why it happened because we know that God is good and he would not punish a generation 200 years later for the revolution’s lapse into animism. There needs to be an additional answer.
3. God is a loving God but tragedies do happen. This is a tough concept because a loving God and tragedy seem to be in opposition. On the surface that is true but we should qualify a few things. First of all, we should remember the free will explanation from above. Since God respects our free will he does allow us to make bad and even evil decisions and those decisions affect others. It is not that God wills for rape, murder, and starvation to happen, but he allows it as a consequence of free will. The alternative is that we would not have the ability to choose good or evil or to do evil. That would also mean that we would not be free to choose him. The ability to choose God freely is a fundamental gift that we have. So one way to look at it is that God preserves the gift of freedom even though it might mean that evil happens. But that isn’t God’s fault, that is our fault. We have the ability to choose good and if we did that would be what God would want in the first place. But it is also true that not every bad event that happens occurs because of evil on our part. There are natural disasters as well. The difference here is between moral evils and physical evils. Moral evils are preventable by our making good decisions. Physical evils occur as the natural order of things: tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, many sicknesses, and the like are examples of these. It seems that Rev. Pat Robertson was making the mistake of combining both of these groups. It is a common mistake and Jesus himself corrected it in his own preaching. For example the tower that collapsed (Luke 13:4) and the man born blind (John 9:2) were two specific occasions where Jesus rejects the concept that all bad things that happen are a result of particular sins. He said that the tower didn’t collapse on those people because they were worse sinners and he said that the man was born blind not because he was a sinner, but to glorify God (through his healing). So sometimes bad things happen because of our free will and sometimes bad things happen in spite of our free will.
Conclusion: Then why do bad things happen that we do not have the power to change? I need to mention that God can and often does intervene and prevent natural disasters. But for now, let’s look at a few reasons why he might allow them: 1. It gives us an opportunity to help and care for others. One positive side effect of Haiti is the outpouring of generous help by others. God gives us an opportunity to do ministry and respond in love. 2. It reminds us that this world is transitory and not how it should be. One of the points of the Genesis creation story is that after the original sin, the perfect harmony with God and his creation was changed and needs restoration. We have the promise that it will be fully restored one day in the New Heavens and the New Earth (Rev. 21). Jesus has begun the first stage of that restoration but it will only be fully realized in the fullness of time when he comes back. In the meantime natural tragedies remind us that we still await the total fulfillment of the promise. 3. It reminds us who remain that life is short and we are mortal. For example, sickness reminds us that we are mortal and that should inspire us to look to heaven as our final and real home. 4. It gives us the opportunity to participate in the suffering of Christ (Romans 8:17). If we are faithful even in suffering, we imitate Jesus’ example and participate in his redemptive process. 5. Let’s be honest, sometimes bad things happen and we will not know (on this side of heaven) why they do. Often there aren’t good reasons that we can come up with. But we can trust that in the end Jesus will make it right (Lk 16:19-31). Also, we won’t know the reasons why God allows what he does but we can trust that his ultimate plan is for good and when we are in heaven we will have all the reasons revealed to us. In the meantime we live by faith trusting in his ultimate goodness. I guess it all goes back to that – we do what we can and have faith that God will do what he can. Even if we can’t have it all figured out, we can trust that God in his goodness does.
A response to an Atheist
A short while ago I responded to an atheist comment linked after a story about Christianity. I have noticed that many internet sites that are related to technology have very anti-Christian comments and it got me wondering whether it was my perception or if something else was going on. I found a study that reported that 51% of the users of Digg.com (a common site used by the “tech” crowd) (see link) considered themselves atheist even though the overall population in this country is around 8% or less. It seems that this group is similar to others such as journalism and entertainment in that they are disproportionate to the norm when it comes to religious convictions. What I found particularly concerning was the overall tone of the comments by “users” from sites like “Digg” which are known to cater to the tech crowd. If all you knew about Christianity came from these people you would assume that all Christians were idiots, pedophiles, extremists, responsible for every war in history, and spent their every waking hour trying to figure out how to kill off unbelievers. The overall view is so highly distorted that the comments take on a life of their own and they seem to feed off of each other. Even though their generalizations are wildly broad and exaggerated, I think that they repeat it so much that they start to collectively believe it. Of course, there is no mention of any good that Christians do such as charity, hospitals, education, outreach, etc.
So this conversation was between me and a particular atheist who was being especially anti-Christian. He was basically saying that Christians are idiots because they believe in something with no evidence, we make God in our own image, ancients believed in God because they were gullible and uncritical but we should be more enlightened in our modern world. Also, Christianity hinders our freedom because it prevents us from doing what we want. Of course, this is nothing new. These types of arguments have been around from the beginning. So I responded to him engaging him on his own terms – using only common logic and reason. My point in posting this is not anti-atheist. My point is threefold: 1. that we should understand that there are some people who are very anti-Christian and are working to get rid of its influence. 2. We should not apologize for being Christians because we are a force for good throughout history. and 3. I hope you all realize that we follow an intelligent and well reasoned faith.
I’ll post some excerpts from my post below. Even though you can tell that he isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer, his overall arguments tend to be what is recirculated in these forums. I can’t post the whole thing because the the person’s profanity and attacks are beyond the scope of this page. Also, there are a lot of errors in his argument like thinking that believers depend on circular logic, Islam is the most popular religion (Christianity is), the devil image came from farmers (it was the god Pan), Jesus was Semitic not Egyptian, etc.
His Argument from my response to an Anti-Christian comment:
Unlike people that use circular logic like god exist because it says so in the bible and … I find NO evidence of god. I find evidence of life, matter, and awareness but that does NOT in ANY way mean that there is a god. Also seeing that there are around a 100 religions and many dead religions which so called god do I worship? I know I’ll go with the most popular Mohamad, or maybe the second most popular Budda, or maybe I’ll go with the 3rd place runner up Jesus but then I’ll have to choose catholic, persistent, mormon, or whatever other one they’ve come up with now.
Also when I choose a god to follow then I have basically told all other religions just like I am now without being in one that their god is just made up by a bunch of decendents of monkeys that haven’t gotten over their fear of death or life without meaning so we have to make up stories about being created in the image of god. Gee how humble of us thinking that we were created in gods image or was it just convenient that the creators of the religion decided that was how it was to be written and taught to the back then 2000 years ago totally uneducated people.
It was also so convinient that god sat on a throne just like a king the highest position any man can aspire to back then and that the devil looked like an evil upright animal with hooves that was red like covered in blood and carried a pitchfork which back then was considered a normal weapon since most that would worship this god were poor stupid farmers.
Should I go on how Jesus is portray as a white man like myself because there was no way in hell people would follow or convince others to follow any god that was not pure white like themselves since if god created them in his image he must be white even though back then in the middle east most people including Jesus were probably more from African or Egyption ancestry and very non white.
So all gods Jesus, Jahova, Mohamad, Budda, Cali, L Ron Hubbard, and any I forgot to mention can… and I’ll show them the meaning of life but I forgot they don’t exist so maybe I’ll just go online and…
I used to be tolerant till I saw my first tea party and then saw hidden interviews of it. Those … were dumb. I mean I knew a lot of people in the south were dumb but these people were spouting of facts and when asked why they thought that they spouted off something unrelated and just as dumb. It was a #@%fest 08 with everyone with a FOX News uneducation though I’m sure from some of the people questioned they were exactly far from the bottom of there graduating class, at least the ones that did graduate.
As for cultural norms I’m not sure there aren’t any since everyone is different. I myself work 40 hrs a week at the same job for years now and then come home and watch tv and go to bed. The only thing I could do to fit in more is to be stoned or drunk… like almost every person I know or have ever met. Seriously this world is filled up with drunks, stoners, liars, cheaters, and a host of other things and many of them consider themselves religious and don’t worry cause unlike myself if they do something they just confess where I have to live with my guilt. Oh yeah if you haven’t heard athiest are as moral, honest, and caring as any other person religious or not. We just don’t need the reason some invisible god is watching and judging us on our actions and that makes what we do better since we do it because we wanted to and not for the reward like many of going to heaven or not going to hell.
My Response:
At least you are being honest. It seems that you honestly believe that religious people are just not that smart, are gullible, or haven’t thought things through. Also, people who existed before our time tended to be superstitious and simple minded. I think you are saying that the age old tenancy to connect with the divine proves that, since they all don’t agree on what the divine is, there is no divine. Most Christians know that Jesus wasn’t really blond and blue eyed, but Jesus is also portrayed as African and otherwise in their countries. I guess people image according to their own experience. Your point is that people create a god in their own image.
I’m not being condescending here… but what’s a tea party?
Now the hedonistic thing makes total sense to me. If this life is all there is, party on.
I get it.
But being that you have some grasp of history you have to know that there were brilliant minds that threw off the religion of their day but couldn’t justify the atheistic position. Plato and Aristotle spoke of contingent beings depending on a first cause and an uncaused cause. This was totally opposed to the Greek polytheism of their day. Their reason led them in a different direction. Classical, medieval, renaissance, enlightenment, and modern philosophers have to a large degree explained a well reasoned world view that was systematic and included the divine. I’m sure that you are familiar with many of these.
As for observable evidence, that’s a tall order when, traditionally, God has never been claimed to be made up of matter or energy (even in the ancient world). That’s like proving the existence of anything before the Big Bang. It’s not observable because it is outside of our experience. There are many theories and some are reasonable. Even so, some would say miracles, prayer experiences, being “hard wired” for the divine, a sense of right and wrong, the need for a first cause, beauty, etc as “evidences”. Of course I would expect the counter to be that people are delusional or it is a coping mechanism to deny mortality, etc. Regardless, if the criteria for evidence is only empirical, it really limits things. If God exists outside of space and time, it is (in philosophical terms) the difference between metaphysics and physics. You can show that something is reasonable without having to prove it empirically. The existence of the Easter Bunny being God is not reasonable. The existence of God is reasonable. Not because I say so, but it holds up among countless reasonable and intelligent people using systematic reasoning. The Easter Bunny just doesn’t, so those comparisons don’t really work. Granted it would be better if everyone who was religious agreed on what the divine being was, but that doesn’t make a believer unreasonable.
As for moral action, Hume is a good example of an atheistic philosopher who did a great job explaining how moral living doesn’t depend on specific belief in God. On the other hand, Christian theologians agree with this and say it is part of the natural moral law. Maybe some religious people do things because they are scared of God, but I wouldn’t say that is the dominant religious teaching. Most would say they want to do the right thing because it is the right thing. It’s like kids. They might start out looking both ways before they cross the street because they don’t want to get into trouble. Hopefully, they come to the point where they look both ways because it is in their best interest.
I know that many on the forums portray religious people as being stupid and oppressive people, but is that really your day to day experience? Why is mine so different? For that matter, most atheists I know tend to not be like your final paragraph. It just seems like an out of balance portrayal.
So I guess I’m back to my original question. Why are so many Geeks atheistic. And why the overall negativity? Is it really because of bad Christians? It doesn’t seem to me that Christians would be any worse than non Christians and certainly not deserving of the smear campaign.